As far as I’m concerned, this is the entire benefit of lemmy/piefed/etc… They can have their space, and any other instance can choose not to federate with them so we aren’t forced to listen to them, unlike the alternative, where an algorithm forces them into everyone’s face.
Rather than telling them they don’t have the right to speak, we simply have the ability to shut our window and not listen to them.
Except if you are on lemmy, if another instance user reposts their shit, your instance will get to see that because the devs don’t want to completely block their own propaganda.
That’s why I moved to Piefed, and the propaganda about my country has plummeted for some reason…
I mean “welcome” in the most generic, passive aggressive Canadian sense of the word. Shutting the door is exactly what the strength of federated/defederated social media is all about.
Them making their own space actually lets us much more easily reduce our exposure to them - without their space we get them everywhere and each of us have to ban such users individuals to avoid their poison, whilst if they’re congregated in a server we can just ban that server and/or its forums.
In terms of the NAZI bar metaphor, this is more like the NAZIS setting up their own bar and congregating there rather than trying to take over other bars - everybody else can very easilly avoid even looking at the NAZI bar, much less going there and listening to them spreading their ideology - yeah, by default the sound of their activities does leak to the street, but in Lemmy we’re the ones who can chose to close the door, not them.
Compare that with, for example, how the Zionists captured news@lemmy.world and even up to a level the server itself, by seeking moderation and admin positions there: subverting an existing large traffic forum and the biggest Lemmy instance is way much more pernicious than what the other kind of NAZI are doing by setting up their own - easily avoided - corner.
You raise good points, but for me the issue is, the Nazis then still have their own bar. And that creates a hub for them to advertise, spread, and sow hatred. And eventually, to try to buy the owners of the media platform. This is the literal “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook they’re using. Is that not a problem too? How could we combat it best?
I think it’s better if we shut down their bar and bar them from even coming to any bar.
They want to go to a bar? Either don’t be a fascist or shut up.
They would have one either way - I mean, just look at Twitter, Reddit, FOX News. Even when there weren’t such NAZI spaces bought and paid for by billionaires, NAZIs had their own websites, mailing lists and whatever.
Weakenning the freedom inherent to the Fediverse’s implementation just because the NAZIs might use it to create their own space is just indirectly constraining yourself because of the NAZIs, which IMHO is the opposite of what we should be doing.
Would you defend changing HTTP(S) and HTML to somehow stop NAZIs using it because as they are now they can be used by NAZIs to spread their message? How about e-mail? How about pen and paper?
You can’t just throw the baby with the bathwater “because NAZIs”.
If you really want to stop NAZI messaging altogether you can’t do it by Technical means, you have to do it by Social and Political means - Laws Censoring NAZI messaging - and even there, look at Germany that does it and all they seem to have achieved is that the NAZI symbology is hidden whilst a large part of the NAZI way of things is widespread in society (hence the AfD success) and some elements of it are even shared by the majority (hence Germany’s very overtly race-justified unconditional support of a nation commiting a Genocide). De facto Germany’s banning of NAZIsm hasn’t stopped the kind of Fascism like in the US right now or the AfD there, were they use the NAZI propaganda techniques and share many ideological elements with the NAZIs but just don’t use NAZI symbols.
Barring them from everywhere would be ideal, but if not that, barring them from as many places as possible would be good too. Billionnaires have too much power and they are the powderkeg, in my view, that enabled fascism. So imho, we need to reduce their numbers and wealth, redistributing it to everyone.
I defend barring fascists everywhere, and not compromising the resilence of the fediverse to censorship from fascists.
And as for social and political means… in Germany, the AfD has had fewer votes as a % of turnout, than what the Republicans got in the US. I think the real cure is to combat algorithms by the root, and to seize the power over them back to the left and anyone non-fascist (or not as insane).
I also look at it Logically and that yields a more subtle take.
My point is that thinking that ANYTHING is acceptable to contain the NAZIs (even when it hurts the rest) is forgetting that the whole point of stopping the NAZIs is to protected everybody else and their freedoms.
I’ll give you a parallel example: start by “Everybody should be thrown in Jail to make sure all criminals are in Jail”. Whilst it would work, this is obviously senseless. Once that’s accepted the discussion becomes “how far should we go to make sure criminals go to Jail” and onwards to “how many innocents wrongly in Jail is acceptable” and “how many criminals who evade Jail is acceptable”.
All that is what lead to things like a Justice System with Presumption of Innocence, different sentences for different Crimes and an Appeals System.
When it comes to stopping NAZIs the same reasoning applies - “ANYTHING is acceptable” is obviously senseless (killing all human beings would certainly stop the NAZIs, but I expect we both agree that it’s a bit too much) so the discussion is then moved to “how far are we willing to sacrifice the rest in order to stop the NAZIs”, which is the area of thinking anchoring my original point - if the NAZIs are contained (by their own choice, even), then maybe it’s not worth it to sacrifice the freedom of the rest by mangling the Fediverse if all that would deliver as a result is the near-zero impact outcome of barring the NAZIs from their own separate space in the Fediverse whilst they can still gather elsewhere.
In my view by wanting that you asked originally, a far greater number of people than the number of NAZIs would sacrifice a lot for something that will make the NAZIs lose very little - or in other words your idea amounts to “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”.
I don’t think that “lets’ fuck up what’s important for almost everybody in order to barelly inconvenience the NAZIs” is a wise position, even if I understand the impulse to “just fuck those sons of a bitch no matter what”.
Deterring them from the Fediverse (as in not letting the use the protocol) is a near zero impact for them outcome, possibly technically impossible (it’s an open protocol and the software is open source) and possibly with a lot of negative impact for everybody else (it risks undermining the main point of the Fediverse - Freedom).
Much more important is deterring them from spreading their hate to other people (in general) and as it so happens, when it comes to the people in the Fediverse, them segregating themselves in their own server actually helps with that: other servers can simple defederate, taking away their audience, hence they’re not actually spreading their hate to others in the Fediverse.
With them not being self-segregated it’s a lot harder because it they’ll do what they are doing right now: join servers all over the place, post comments all over the place, so in response they get banned if they go too far (and then just open a new account) and others tend to try and nullify their poison by downvoting them or pointing out the with logic the stupidity and/or inconsistence of their position, all of which is a lot more fallible than just defederating the NAZI instance.
More generally, there is no perfect way to “deter them from the fediverse” (just try to actually analyse the problem space and you will soon find that there’s no foolproof method), and hence the discussion has to be about how far should we go and what the delivers the best results, which brings us around to the point I was making: having the NAZIs in their own instance does more to stop them spreading their poison the Fediverse audience than somehow blocking that and keeping on trying to stamp them down individually when they’re mixed with the general fediverse population.
You have a very poor understanding of how the fediverse works if you think that’s true.
You can always section yourself off from the instances you don’t like. If it just so happens that you’re sectioning yourself off from most of the fediverse, then that’s on you.
They’re welcome to it.
As far as I’m concerned, this is the entire benefit of lemmy/piefed/etc… They can have their space, and any other instance can choose not to federate with them so we aren’t forced to listen to them, unlike the alternative, where an algorithm forces them into everyone’s face.
Rather than telling them they don’t have the right to speak, we simply have the ability to shut our window and not listen to them.
Let them bitch at each other.
Except if you are on lemmy, if another instance user reposts their shit, your instance will get to see that because the devs don’t want to completely block their own propaganda.
That’s why I moved to Piefed, and the propaganda about my country has plummeted for some reason…
I disagree with them being welcome, if we have more fascists over here eventually we’ll get overrun. Best to shut that door immediately.
I mean “welcome” in the most generic, passive aggressive Canadian sense of the word. Shutting the door is exactly what the strength of federated/defederated social media is all about.
Them making their own space actually lets us much more easily reduce our exposure to them - without their space we get them everywhere and each of us have to ban such users individuals to avoid their poison, whilst if they’re congregated in a server we can just ban that server and/or its forums.
In terms of the NAZI bar metaphor, this is more like the NAZIS setting up their own bar and congregating there rather than trying to take over other bars - everybody else can very easilly avoid even looking at the NAZI bar, much less going there and listening to them spreading their ideology - yeah, by default the sound of their activities does leak to the street, but in Lemmy we’re the ones who can chose to close the door, not them.
Compare that with, for example, how the Zionists captured news@lemmy.world and even up to a level the server itself, by seeking moderation and admin positions there: subverting an existing large traffic forum and the biggest Lemmy instance is way much more pernicious than what the other kind of NAZI are doing by setting up their own - easily avoided - corner.
You raise good points, but for me the issue is, the Nazis then still have their own bar. And that creates a hub for them to advertise, spread, and sow hatred. And eventually, to try to buy the owners of the media platform. This is the literal “embrace, extend, extinguish” playbook they’re using. Is that not a problem too? How could we combat it best?
I think it’s better if we shut down their bar and bar them from even coming to any bar.
They want to go to a bar? Either don’t be a fascist or shut up.
They would have one either way - I mean, just look at Twitter, Reddit, FOX News. Even when there weren’t such NAZI spaces bought and paid for by billionaires, NAZIs had their own websites, mailing lists and whatever.
Weakenning the freedom inherent to the Fediverse’s implementation just because the NAZIs might use it to create their own space is just indirectly constraining yourself because of the NAZIs, which IMHO is the opposite of what we should be doing.
Would you defend changing HTTP(S) and HTML to somehow stop NAZIs using it because as they are now they can be used by NAZIs to spread their message? How about e-mail? How about pen and paper?
You can’t just throw the baby with the bathwater “because NAZIs”.
If you really want to stop NAZI messaging altogether you can’t do it by Technical means, you have to do it by Social and Political means - Laws Censoring NAZI messaging - and even there, look at Germany that does it and all they seem to have achieved is that the NAZI symbology is hidden whilst a large part of the NAZI way of things is widespread in society (hence the AfD success) and some elements of it are even shared by the majority (hence Germany’s very overtly race-justified unconditional support of a nation commiting a Genocide). De facto Germany’s banning of NAZIsm hasn’t stopped the kind of Fascism like in the US right now or the AfD there, were they use the NAZI propaganda techniques and share many ideological elements with the NAZIs but just don’t use NAZI symbols.
Barring them from everywhere would be ideal, but if not that, barring them from as many places as possible would be good too. Billionnaires have too much power and they are the powderkeg, in my view, that enabled fascism. So imho, we need to reduce their numbers and wealth, redistributing it to everyone.
I defend barring fascists everywhere, and not compromising the resilence of the fediverse to censorship from fascists.
And as for social and political means… in Germany, the AfD has had fewer votes as a % of turnout, than what the Republicans got in the US. I think the real cure is to combat algorithms by the root, and to seize the power over them back to the left and anyone non-fascist (or not as insane).
I understand the feeling.
I also look at it Logically and that yields a more subtle take.
My point is that thinking that ANYTHING is acceptable to contain the NAZIs (even when it hurts the rest) is forgetting that the whole point of stopping the NAZIs is to protected everybody else and their freedoms.
I’ll give you a parallel example: start by “Everybody should be thrown in Jail to make sure all criminals are in Jail”. Whilst it would work, this is obviously senseless. Once that’s accepted the discussion becomes “how far should we go to make sure criminals go to Jail” and onwards to “how many innocents wrongly in Jail is acceptable” and “how many criminals who evade Jail is acceptable”.
All that is what lead to things like a Justice System with Presumption of Innocence, different sentences for different Crimes and an Appeals System.
When it comes to stopping NAZIs the same reasoning applies - “ANYTHING is acceptable” is obviously senseless (killing all human beings would certainly stop the NAZIs, but I expect we both agree that it’s a bit too much) so the discussion is then moved to “how far are we willing to sacrifice the rest in order to stop the NAZIs”, which is the area of thinking anchoring my original point - if the NAZIs are contained (by their own choice, even), then maybe it’s not worth it to sacrifice the freedom of the rest by mangling the Fediverse if all that would deliver as a result is the near-zero impact outcome of barring the NAZIs from their own separate space in the Fediverse whilst they can still gather elsewhere.
In my view by wanting that you asked originally, a far greater number of people than the number of NAZIs would sacrifice a lot for something that will make the NAZIs lose very little - or in other words your idea amounts to “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”.
I don’t think that “lets’ fuck up what’s important for almost everybody in order to barelly inconvenience the NAZIs” is a wise position, even if I understand the impulse to “just fuck those sons of a bitch no matter what”.
But, how would you inconvenience the Nazis then? How would you deter them from the fediverse?
Deterring them from the Fediverse (as in not letting the use the protocol) is a near zero impact for them outcome, possibly technically impossible (it’s an open protocol and the software is open source) and possibly with a lot of negative impact for everybody else (it risks undermining the main point of the Fediverse - Freedom).
Much more important is deterring them from spreading their hate to other people (in general) and as it so happens, when it comes to the people in the Fediverse, them segregating themselves in their own server actually helps with that: other servers can simple defederate, taking away their audience, hence they’re not actually spreading their hate to others in the Fediverse.
With them not being self-segregated it’s a lot harder because it they’ll do what they are doing right now: join servers all over the place, post comments all over the place, so in response they get banned if they go too far (and then just open a new account) and others tend to try and nullify their poison by downvoting them or pointing out the with logic the stupidity and/or inconsistence of their position, all of which is a lot more fallible than just defederating the NAZI instance.
More generally, there is no perfect way to “deter them from the fediverse” (just try to actually analyse the problem space and you will soon find that there’s no foolproof method), and hence the discussion has to be about how far should we go and what the delivers the best results, which brings us around to the point I was making: having the NAZIs in their own instance does more to stop them spreading their poison the Fediverse audience than somehow blocking that and keeping on trying to stamp them down individually when they’re mixed with the general fediverse population.
You have a very poor understanding of how the fediverse works if you think that’s true.
You can always section yourself off from the instances you don’t like. If it just so happens that you’re sectioning yourself off from most of the fediverse, then that’s on you.
Ooh ooh! Please mansplain the fediverse, 12 hour old account!
Except that what I call for is a collective defederation from those fascists.
The ones sectioning themselves off are the fascists by virtue of holding repulsive ideologies.
My friend, the person you replied to is that fascist.
Thanks for letting me know, blocked them. Blåhaj on, comrade!
Yeah man.
If they’re not with you, they’re against you.
Can we build a wall around them?
and make MAGA Place pay for it?
This one gets it
but I’m on Lemmy.World and I’m too stupid to understand everything.
Thank you, now I love lemmy even more.